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[Music]

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well as reality with your question and

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now shadows reality hey Kate hey faroush

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yeah how are you I'm doing pretty well I

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see you have lined up a wonderful guest

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for us today yes we actually have one

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big guest and one listener experience at

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the end of the show so we're gonna start

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out our show and let us slate let's

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slate okay today is February 25th 2017

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mm-hm

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our guest today is the wonderful dr.

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penny Sartori right coming to us right

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from Swansea in Wales that's pretty

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amazing it is amazing the one wouldn't

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have thought that one we were little

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kids that we would be you know just

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talking no look at he's splitting it all

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over the world but no but dr. penny

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Sartori is a very very interesting guest

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and she has written a book called the

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wisdom of near-death experiences she has

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also written another book but the other

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book is I believe for her college

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courses and it's called the near-death

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experience of hospitalised intensive

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care patients a five-year critical study

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hmm she is she has been a nurse and she

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is a nurse but right now she is teaching

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that she has her doctorate she is

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teaching at the Swansea University about

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death and dying and spiritual

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transformation she has two special

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courses there so let's welcome dr. penny

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Sartori yes thank you so much for being

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here with us

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oh hi thanks thanks for asking me it's

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lovely to be with you I wanna make

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sure that you feel a thousand percent

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welcome because I'm just gonna say a

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very very short little story of my own

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I've been to Wales twice which is a lot

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for an American the average American may

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have never gone to Wales but I've been

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there twice because I have some of my

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background from Wales and one time I

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went to Wales it was when they had the I

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stuff odd I don't know if I'm saying

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that correctly because I'm not a Celtic

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speaker but they had the I stuff odd and

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I went out of out of interest and

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curiosity wanting to learn a little bit

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about that part of my roots and I was

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welcomed so nicely and they signed me up

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and they wanted me to come back and tell

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my story but unfortunately I had to

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catch a plane back to the US of A but I

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did spend a day and a half there and I

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got a lovely lovely welcome both times I

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was in Wales once with my my parents my

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father being the the Welsh part of the

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the group I mean he's part Welsh and I

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was there with them and then later I was

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there once again and it's just a

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wonderful wonderful place so welcome

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many welcomes to you dr. penny do you

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want the do you want to start out no not

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really I was just fascinated by the

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whole idea of the near-death experience

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but largely from your viewpoint because

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you were actually there when it happened

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some people speculated about it they

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talked about it but you've actually seen

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the passing of people from one state to

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another state and then back to this

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state and so it's really your first-hand

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experience her and yeah yes that's right

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I was really I was in quite a privileged

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position really and I think my interest

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in the subject of near-death experience

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kind of was generated from my work as a

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nurse and I think I was just in that

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perfect place because not only was I

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fascinated by these experiences I was

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actually looking after patients who were

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having these kind of experiences so it

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was a unique and privileged position

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also I feel people in the state that

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they're in obviously critically ill

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so to develop a very close relationship

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to the nurses that care for them and

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trust them and are comfortable sharing

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their experiences with them as opposed

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to let's say a stranger that would just

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walk in and it's a little bit out of the

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ordinary to say I've had a near-death

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experience but to be able to experience

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that and discuss it with someone they

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trusted also added to it mm-hmm yes

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that's right and I thought that was one

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of the findings of my research really

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was how important it is that patients

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feel comfortable in expressing that

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they've had these experiences because a

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lot of people after the 15 cases that I

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got during my hospital study it was only

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two patients actually volunteered the

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information the others I found because I

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interviewed every single person who

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would kind of survived a cardiac arrest

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and I just my opening question was did

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you recall anything from the time that

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you were unconscious

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now most people didn't remember anything

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but had I not asked that question

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thirteen patients would never have

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spoken about their near-death experience

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because they were afraid to talk about

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it they thought were they they didn't

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understand it and they thought that they

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may have been going crazy and the fact

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that they were able then to express what

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had happened was a big help to them so

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you know this is a really vital for that

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all newses are aware of these

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experiences keep the patients the people

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who had these experiences it's essential

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that they be validated that's that's

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essentially what you're saying I take it

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yes absolutely that is the that that's

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the most helpful thing that anyone can

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do is to validate that experience for

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them and say look you're not alone other

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people have also reported these

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experiences and then there's lots of

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resources out there that you know

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there's lots up on the internet there's

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the International Association of

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near-death studies which is very helpful

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as well so it's important to validate it

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and to direct them to other sources

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where they can get help

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and I was really interested in your

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description of the first time that you

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were working as a nurse and one of the

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other nurses said to you that this

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patient will be dead by a certain time

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you were sort of shocked by that and yet

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intrigued by it at the same time yes

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that's right I can remember my very

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first day on the ward as a student nurse

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pass and the night nurse was handed over

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to the the morning staff and she said oh

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she said the man in bed six section C

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he'll be dead by the end of the morning

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because he's been talking to his dead

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mother since about three o'clock and I

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kind of you know I thought wow were they

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trying to just wind me up because it's

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my first day I looked around and

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everyone carried on as if it was normal

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and I went out and I observed this

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patient and I could see him gesturing to

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someone who I couldn't see and I got

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called away for other nursing duties but

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I kept going back throughout the course

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of the morning to look at this man and

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it was about 11:30 in the morning and I

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can remember he almost got some energy

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from someone somewhere and as if he was

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trying to sit up and his arms were

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outstretched and he had this lovely

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smile on his face and he sort of sat and

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stayed like that for a few seconds and

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then relax back and it looked like he'd

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gone to sleep

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but he'd actually died at that point so

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you know exactly what that night nurse

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had said he did die by the end of the

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morning and and you've also reported

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that most people who have died during an

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experience of that nature they die

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reasonably happily they die with a smile

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on their face or they don't seem to be

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trying to fight it as much when they've

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been talking to deceased relatives or

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spiritual entities that may they may

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perceive as being in the room yes it's

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as if these visions that they have give

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them great comfort and prepare them for

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the journey that they're going to take

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and yes is they very much at peace and

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at ease because I've also witnessed

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patients who aren't at ease and you know

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they can get quite distressed and

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agitated

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that certainly isn't the case when

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people have these visions and in fact I

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was talking to one of the hospice

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doctors and she said to me that through

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her 40 year career she said patients who

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had previously had a near-death

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experience also had the most peaceful

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deaths that she'd encountered as well so

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these are really conducive to helping

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patients to have that peaceful and ease

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full and transition into death well it

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certainly is very I mean certainly it

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seems to be a major fear of most humans

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this fear of dying and the fact that

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there may be something other than just

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nothing it was very comforting and uh I

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think work such as yours helps to ease

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that fear but you what interested me too

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you said it's the wisdom of near-death

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experiences and what did you refer to by

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wisdom I found was that patients who

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came back who'd had the near-death

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experience and came back they were

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changed in such profound ways and it was

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through reflecting on their life and one

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of the biggest aspects of the near-death

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experience to help with this is the life

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review and this is where you've heard

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the expression my life totally flashed

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before my eyes well this this does

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happen and it's more than just flashing

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past their eyes it's more of a reliving

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of their life and they relive everything

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it's the significant things they did

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plus all the insignificant things that

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they totally forgot about and sometimes

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it's it's a total reliving but sometimes

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what they can do is swap places with

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people who they've interacted with so if

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they've been unpleasant to someone or

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inflicted some form of violence on

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someone they can feel like what it was

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like to be in that person's shoes so

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they feel the hurt that they inflicted

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on people both emotional hurt and

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physical hurt and that gives them a very

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different perspective on that situation

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and when they come back to life they

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they obviously take that on board and

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they live their life after is very

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different in men in most cases um the

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three of us here are all tremendous

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animal lovers Cait myself and our

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engineer we're all really wonderful

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animal lovers and I know that there have

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been some cases where people have seen

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their their animals when they're in the

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near-death experience and how common is

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that that's quite common and it's more

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common in children as well they tend to

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see their dead pets and but it is very

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common I am I can remember one lady

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saying to me that she had a big black

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Labrador and she was very close to the

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Labrador and when she went into the

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other realm she went through that

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darkness and she found herself in the

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light and she was in a beautiful meadow

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with lovely green grass and and along

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him her black labrador dog boned in

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across from the other side to greet her

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and she said she just she couldn't she

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was communicating with her dog as well

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in a way that she hadn't communicated

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before it was almost like she was

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reading and understanding the thoughts

273
00:12:33,439 --> 00:12:29,850
and it it was full of love for her so

274
00:12:34,850 --> 00:12:33,449
yes it's quite well that's great but

275
00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:34,860
they better have a lot of tennis balls

276
00:12:41,929 --> 00:12:39,569
and after the labs are in heaven there

277
00:12:44,449 --> 00:12:41,939
are endless tennis balls for endless

278
00:12:49,309 --> 00:12:44,459
laboratories do not worry King okay all

279
00:12:52,759 --> 00:12:49,319
right it's funny we had a person I knew

280
00:12:54,290 --> 00:12:52,769
once her dog died unexpectedly and she

281
00:12:58,189 --> 00:12:54,300
was very upset about it and choose

282
00:12:59,780 --> 00:12:58,199
asleep and two or three days later just

283
00:13:02,030 --> 00:12:59,790
as she was getting up to go about today

284
00:13:04,100 --> 00:13:02,040
she said oh sure wait a minute I'll get

285
00:13:06,199 --> 00:13:04,110
up I'll get you I'll walk you now and

286
00:13:08,449 --> 00:13:06,209
she was getting up and around and

287
00:13:10,670 --> 00:13:08,459
petting the dog on the head and getting

288
00:13:14,150 --> 00:13:10,680
you know a half asleep and then

289
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:14,160
realizing that the dog had died and then

290
00:13:18,079 --> 00:13:15,930
the dog sort of disappeared in front of

291
00:13:20,090 --> 00:13:18,089
her so maybe the spirits do come back

292
00:13:22,699 --> 00:13:20,100
and this lady was very sincere and

293
00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:22,709
telling me this well yes that's really

294
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:24,720
interesting and and in fact I heard

295
00:13:27,230 --> 00:13:26,490
something similar the other day as well

296
00:13:30,380 --> 00:13:27,240
where

297
00:13:32,329 --> 00:13:30,390
someone who'd lost their cat and they

298
00:13:36,170 --> 00:13:32,339
were very close to the cat is about 17

299
00:13:38,449 --> 00:13:36,180
years of age and during the night the

300
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:38,459
the lady had woken up and she'd had this

301
00:13:43,970 --> 00:13:41,610
really vivid dream where the cat had

302
00:13:46,070 --> 00:13:43,980
come back and thank them for looking

303
00:13:48,949 --> 00:13:46,080
after her I'm just said it was her time

304
00:13:50,990 --> 00:13:48,959
to go and it was really vivid and so

305
00:13:53,180 --> 00:13:51,000
when she woke up in the morning she said

306
00:13:55,850 --> 00:13:53,190
to her husband what had happened and he

307
00:13:58,160 --> 00:13:55,860
just his face froze and he said I have

308
00:14:01,280 --> 00:13:58,170
that exact dream the night before but I

309
00:14:03,110 --> 00:14:01,290
didn't tell him about it so hmm

310
00:14:08,180 --> 00:14:03,120
so it's like the cat had come back and

311
00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:08,190
and communicated still no I you know

312
00:14:12,769 --> 00:14:10,050
have had a lot of I've had a couple of

313
00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:12,779
dogs but I've had a lot of cats and it

314
00:14:19,130 --> 00:14:15,770
seems to me that the cats are somehow

315
00:14:21,500 --> 00:14:19,140
bonded to their location and in fact

316
00:14:23,510 --> 00:14:21,510
when I went back to an apartment that I

317
00:14:27,500 --> 00:14:23,520
used to live in and actually had a nap

318
00:14:30,079 --> 00:14:27,510
there my cats joined me the cats that

319
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:30,089
that were my companion animals during

320
00:14:34,610 --> 00:14:32,250
this stay at that apartment initially

321
00:14:38,449 --> 00:14:34,620
and they were they had at that juncture

322
00:14:40,370 --> 00:14:38,459
had passed I was laying there and as I

323
00:14:44,329 --> 00:14:40,380
was waking up I was in that liminal

324
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:44,339
state I was aware of the cats laying

325
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:47,130
next to me and it was not it was a very

326
00:14:53,090 --> 00:14:49,770
real feeling at the time and I've also

327
00:14:55,579 --> 00:14:53,100
had a dog run down the stairs of the

328
00:14:57,769 --> 00:14:55,589
apartment to run out the door and I was

329
00:15:02,120 --> 00:14:57,779
with a friend a companion and that

330
00:15:04,579 --> 00:15:02,130
friend felt the rush of air next to her

331
00:15:08,150 --> 00:15:04,589
leg she felt it and I said that's that's

332
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:08,160
my old dog junior PI running down the

333
00:15:15,110 --> 00:15:10,050
stairs to run out onto the street like a

334
00:15:17,300 --> 00:15:15,120
bad boy is so interesting well well I

335
00:15:19,970 --> 00:15:17,310
think to to get back to the wisdom you

336
00:15:23,210 --> 00:15:19,980
were saying know that when people are do

337
00:15:24,620 --> 00:15:23,220
pass on and then come back they they

338
00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:24,630
come back with the knowledge that

339
00:15:28,460 --> 00:15:26,910
everything actually is one and this is

340
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:28,470
just we're just a little piece of the

341
00:15:34,010 --> 00:15:31,170
puzzle here but eventually everything

342
00:15:36,110 --> 00:15:34,020
does go back into being everything is

343
00:15:38,870 --> 00:15:36,120
the same sort of a noetic experience and

344
00:15:40,730 --> 00:15:38,880
so that would explain the pets - because

345
00:15:42,940 --> 00:15:40,740
I'm sure or the animals

346
00:15:46,850 --> 00:15:42,950
well I mean they are sentient beings

347
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:46,860
different enough yes and there is a lot

348
00:15:52,130 --> 00:15:48,690
of wisdom and and some of the things as

349
00:15:54,769 --> 00:15:52,140
well that they also say is that they

350
00:15:55,910 --> 00:15:54,779
have this this experience of oneness at

351
00:15:57,829 --> 00:15:55,920
though that we're all interconnected

352
00:15:59,540 --> 00:15:57,839
that we're all one and what we do to

353
00:16:01,850 --> 00:15:59,550
others that ultimately comes back on

354
00:16:03,740 --> 00:16:01,860
ourselves but it's not restricted just

355
00:16:06,199 --> 00:16:03,750
to humans and animals it's also about

356
00:16:08,269 --> 00:16:06,209
the planet as well and so it's as if

357
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:08,279
they see the wider picture and they can

358
00:16:11,990 --> 00:16:10,290
see the damage that humans are doing to

359
00:16:15,500 --> 00:16:12,000
the planet and they have that

360
00:16:18,290 --> 00:16:15,510
realization that we have to work as has

361
00:16:20,630 --> 00:16:18,300
been part of a planet as well I though

362
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:20,640
very often they kind of changed the way

363
00:16:25,910 --> 00:16:22,290
that they behave and they become very

364
00:16:27,949 --> 00:16:25,920
eco-friendly and a very mindful of the

365
00:16:31,310 --> 00:16:27,959
of their behavior as well towards the

366
00:16:33,050 --> 00:16:31,320
planet so it's something really that is

367
00:16:34,820 --> 00:16:33,060
essential if our planet is going to

368
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:34,830
survive it's and seems like we're at

369
00:16:40,579 --> 00:16:38,130
this crisis point and I think wisdom

370
00:16:44,030 --> 00:16:40,589
like this will go a long way for our to

371
00:16:47,329 --> 00:16:44,040
fear that our evolution I I agree and I

372
00:16:52,490 --> 00:16:47,339
think that that's basically the Gaia

373
00:16:55,130 --> 00:16:52,500
principle and I also think that the

374
00:16:58,639 --> 00:16:55,140
planet will continue physically without

375
00:17:00,740 --> 00:16:58,649
us and most of the mammals if we screw

376
00:17:02,900 --> 00:17:00,750
up because that's that's the direction

377
00:17:05,329 --> 00:17:02,910
things may go I'm not going to say I'm

378
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:05,339
gonna try to be a in a positive mood

379
00:17:09,470 --> 00:17:06,480
today

380
00:17:11,750 --> 00:17:09,480
but it's the planet physically will

381
00:17:15,260 --> 00:17:11,760
continue to hurtle through space I'm

382
00:17:17,630 --> 00:17:15,270
sure but Oh with the there are people

383
00:17:21,559 --> 00:17:17,640
who say that we're in the midst of the

384
00:17:23,870 --> 00:17:21,569
fifth great extinction on the planet but

385
00:17:29,390 --> 00:17:23,880
that's not what you came on to talk

386
00:17:31,210 --> 00:17:29,400
about primarily so so we'll move on to

387
00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:31,220
other aspects of the near-death

388
00:17:39,650 --> 00:17:36,000
experience as well as maybe maybe you

389
00:17:42,530 --> 00:17:39,660
could give us an overview of the steps

390
00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:42,540
that you see because different

391
00:17:49,010 --> 00:17:46,370
researchers report much the same

392
00:17:53,299 --> 00:17:49,020
information but they may put more

393
00:17:54,350 --> 00:17:53,309
emphasis on one aspect of the experience

394
00:17:58,490 --> 00:17:54,360
than the other

395
00:18:02,060 --> 00:17:58,500
for instance for myself as a person who

396
00:18:05,420 --> 00:18:02,070
studies what is roughly called the

397
00:18:08,690 --> 00:18:05,430
paranormal the most veridical

398
00:18:14,510 --> 00:18:08,700
part of the near-death experience for me

399
00:18:18,950 --> 00:18:14,520
is the out-of-body part where the the

400
00:18:21,650 --> 00:18:18,960
person who has essentially died or is in

401
00:18:24,770 --> 00:18:21,660
the process of dying can see what's

402
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:24,780
going on at a distant location and then

403
00:18:32,210 --> 00:18:27,690
that information that they bring back is

404
00:18:34,460 --> 00:18:32,220
then verified by people who were perhaps

405
00:18:37,130 --> 00:18:34,470
even unaware of what was going on can

406
00:18:39,050 --> 00:18:37,140
you speak to that part yes absolutely

407
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:39,060
and that is one of the things that I

408
00:18:44,150 --> 00:18:42,210
tried to verify with my research and in

409
00:18:47,630 --> 00:18:44,160
the hospital where I did the research I

410
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:47,640
had these cards that I I cut out random

411
00:18:53,270 --> 00:18:51,330
images from magazine articles and I put

412
00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:53,280
them on very brightly colored paper to

413
00:18:59,750 --> 00:18:56,490
attract attention and I hid those on top

414
00:19:02,480 --> 00:18:59,760
of the cardiac monitor at each patient's

415
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:02,490
bedside and that was mounted off it was

416
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:04,650
a birth head height even if you were

417
00:19:09,170 --> 00:19:06,690
particularly tall you couldn't see what

418
00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:09,180
was on the top and there were ridges

419
00:19:13,580 --> 00:19:11,280
around to conceal them so the only way

420
00:19:16,250 --> 00:19:13,590
these images could be viewed was if you

421
00:19:18,740 --> 00:19:16,260
were out of your body now what I found

422
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:18,750
with my research in the five years of my

423
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:20,610
data collection there were eight

424
00:19:25,850 --> 00:19:22,770
patients who claimed to have out-of-body

425
00:19:27,890 --> 00:19:25,860
type experiences but what I found is

426
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:27,900
that the quality of the experienced

427
00:19:33,500 --> 00:19:31,410
varied vary greatly so for example there

428
00:19:36,830 --> 00:19:33,510
was one man and he used to have frequent

429
00:19:39,020 --> 00:19:36,840
out-of-body experiences he would go into

430
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:39,030
like a trance-like State for no reason

431
00:19:45,140 --> 00:19:42,930
at all and he would just stare ahead and

432
00:19:46,940 --> 00:19:45,150
the reason that we discovered this was

433
00:19:49,550 --> 00:19:46,950
because a new nurse was looking after

434
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:49,560
him at the time and she got a little bit

435
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:51,690
concerned and she took off some blood

436
00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:53,610
and analyzed the blood to see if there

437
00:19:58,130 --> 00:19:56,130
was a problem there and she said to him

438
00:20:00,320 --> 00:19:58,140
you know what happened then and he said

439
00:20:02,810 --> 00:20:00,330
that he'd been out of his body he'd been

440
00:20:03,890 --> 00:20:02,820
up near the ceiling and looking back on

441
00:20:06,890 --> 00:20:03,900
her uniform

442
00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:06,900
so I described the research to him and I

443
00:20:10,130 --> 00:20:08,310
said ok if it happens again

444
00:20:13,370 --> 00:20:10,140
and see if you can float up to the

445
00:20:15,290 --> 00:20:13,380
monitor tell me what is on there but

446
00:20:18,050 --> 00:20:15,300
every time he did have an out-of-body

447
00:20:20,060 --> 00:20:18,060
experience he floated into the middle of

448
00:20:22,940 --> 00:20:20,070
the room and so it was nowhere near

449
00:20:25,700 --> 00:20:22,950
where the symbol was located so he

450
00:20:28,430 --> 00:20:25,710
didn't see the symbols there was another

451
00:20:31,550 --> 00:20:28,440
lady and she floated but it was only

452
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:31,560
probably about a meter above her bed so

453
00:20:36,410 --> 00:20:33,450
she would she didn't float high enough

454
00:20:38,420 --> 00:20:36,420
to see that symbol and so it was very

455
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:38,430
indifferent qualities but there were two

456
00:20:43,940 --> 00:20:41,850
patients who had the type of quality of

457
00:20:45,710 --> 00:20:43,950
experience where they would have been in

458
00:20:49,010 --> 00:20:45,720
a position where they could have viewed

459
00:20:51,290 --> 00:20:49,020
that symbol and both of those patients

460
00:20:53,060 --> 00:20:51,300
said to me that they were so concerned

461
00:20:55,310 --> 00:20:53,070
with what we were doing to their body

462
00:20:57,710 --> 00:20:55,320
and looking around at the emergency

463
00:20:59,870 --> 00:20:57,720
situation that they weren't looking on

464
00:21:01,820 --> 00:20:59,880
top of the cardiac monitors and they

465
00:21:03,980 --> 00:21:01,830
didn't know that the the symbols were

466
00:21:06,970 --> 00:21:03,990
there so it was a lot of hard work to

467
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:06,980
get that aspect of the study set up and

468
00:21:12,590 --> 00:21:09,690
none of the patients actually did see

469
00:21:15,350 --> 00:21:12,600
that symbol but if you think about it in

470
00:21:18,530 --> 00:21:15,360
five years I only captured two patients

471
00:21:20,450 --> 00:21:18,540
who had that type of quality sort of

472
00:21:22,670 --> 00:21:20,460
experience where they could have viewed

473
00:21:25,610 --> 00:21:22,680
it so I think we need to do far more

474
00:21:28,430 --> 00:21:25,620
research and for a much longer period of

475
00:21:32,210 --> 00:21:28,440
time before we can get any real results

476
00:21:36,340 --> 00:21:32,220
on this this brings me to kind of a

477
00:21:40,010 --> 00:21:36,350
question in a statement about that I

478
00:21:43,070 --> 00:21:40,020
think that many of these experiences as

479
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:43,080
you have somewhat indicated in your book

480
00:21:49,460 --> 00:21:45,090
or on a spectrum

481
00:21:54,020 --> 00:21:49,470
I myself have studied remote viewing

482
00:21:56,360 --> 00:21:54,030
with a number of very prominent teachers

483
00:21:58,730 --> 00:21:56,370
and people who have been with the

484
00:22:04,600 --> 00:21:58,740
Stanford Research Institute like Russell

485
00:22:09,260 --> 00:22:04,610
Targ and you know Joe mcmoneagle and

486
00:22:13,010 --> 00:22:09,270
other military remote viewers skip out

487
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:13,020
water and David oh gosh my brain is

488
00:22:18,950 --> 00:22:16,890
David Camm Picabo celesbian no not the

489
00:22:22,159 --> 00:22:18,960
evening no but

490
00:22:24,980 --> 00:22:22,169
in any case I think particularly Russell

491
00:22:27,620 --> 00:22:24,990
Targ though those skip out water may

492
00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:27,630
have mentioned this as well that during

493
00:22:37,419 --> 00:22:32,880
the time that they had people like uri

494
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:37,429
geller and like pat price remote-viewing

495
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:41,730
that most of them will kind of left

496
00:22:48,350 --> 00:22:44,330
their body in a different sense and

497
00:22:53,630 --> 00:22:48,360
could not read what was on cards but

498
00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:53,640
they could distinguish things like an

499
00:23:00,380 --> 00:22:57,690
object like let's say if you put a card

500
00:23:02,899 --> 00:23:00,390
up somewhere that said rubber ducky they

501
00:23:06,139 --> 00:23:02,909
would be very unlikely to be able to

502
00:23:08,389 --> 00:23:06,149
read that they'd be more likely to see a

503
00:23:11,060 --> 00:23:08,399
picture of the rubber ducky and they

504
00:23:13,490 --> 00:23:11,070
would be very likely to see the rubber

505
00:23:15,529 --> 00:23:13,500
ducky if you were able to conceal it on

506
00:23:17,450 --> 00:23:15,539
a shelf high enough that it would not be

507
00:23:20,990 --> 00:23:17,460
seen to a person on the ground so you

508
00:23:25,490 --> 00:23:21,000
would be kind of you know making that a

509
00:23:28,159 --> 00:23:25,500
blind experiment yes that's a really

510
00:23:30,789 --> 00:23:28,169
interesting point actually and most of

511
00:23:34,820 --> 00:23:30,799
what I put up there was actually

512
00:23:36,889 --> 00:23:34,830
symbolic images so random pictures sort

513
00:23:40,789 --> 00:23:36,899
of obviously refers a fan on a surfboard

514
00:23:43,519 --> 00:23:40,799
in the ocean a chicken in the middle of

515
00:23:46,639 --> 00:23:43,529
somewhere an advert for sort of some

516
00:23:49,970 --> 00:23:46,649
kind of cleaner household cleaner and

517
00:23:51,590 --> 00:23:49,980
things like that so it was random things

518
00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:51,600
but that was a good point because in

519
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:54,240
fact there was a lady who contacted me

520
00:23:58,789 --> 00:23:56,610
she wasn't part of my hospital research

521
00:24:00,980 --> 00:23:58,799
but she said that she'd had an

522
00:24:03,350 --> 00:24:00,990
out-of-body experience many years before

523
00:24:06,260 --> 00:24:03,360
when she was in the intensive care unit

524
00:24:08,659 --> 00:24:06,270
and she's a nurse so she's familiar with

525
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:08,669
these kind of the scenery in the

526
00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:10,890
intensive care unit but she said she

527
00:24:14,779 --> 00:24:13,110
floated up to her monitor and she could

528
00:24:17,060 --> 00:24:14,789
see the screen but she couldn't make

529
00:24:20,330 --> 00:24:17,070
sense of it she couldn't read it so

530
00:24:22,279 --> 00:24:20,340
that's kind of verifying what the remote

531
00:24:25,610 --> 00:24:22,289
viewers have said as well yes so they

532
00:24:28,789 --> 00:24:25,620
most of them there is maybe one out of a

533
00:24:31,100 --> 00:24:28,799
thousand trained remote viewers who have

534
00:24:33,049 --> 00:24:31,110
had good results in their remote viewing

535
00:24:36,350 --> 00:24:33,059
or very very few

536
00:24:38,239 --> 00:24:36,360
them can read any letters at all like

537
00:24:41,539 --> 00:24:38,249
reading English or whatever language

538
00:24:45,169 --> 00:24:41,549
they might speak very very few of them

539
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:45,179
can can read something maybe one or two

540
00:24:49,789 --> 00:24:47,730
in the entire experience of of a

541
00:24:51,739 --> 00:24:49,799
gentleman like Russell Targ who has an

542
00:24:55,009 --> 00:24:51,749
enormous amount of experience in the

543
00:24:57,799 --> 00:24:55,019
area but it's your your symbols would

544
00:25:01,249 --> 00:24:57,809
come in at the midpoint of it being a

545
00:25:04,159 --> 00:25:01,259
flat image whereas how perhaps had you

546
00:25:06,470 --> 00:25:04,169
had a physical object like like a rubber

547
00:25:07,940 --> 00:25:06,480
ducky I hate to use that again but it

548
00:25:09,980 --> 00:25:07,950
but there may have been more people

549
00:25:16,009 --> 00:25:09,990
seeing and I just I just throw that out

550
00:25:19,669 --> 00:25:16,019
there um so why don't you go over from

551
00:25:22,629 --> 00:25:19,679
your point of view the the the steps

552
00:25:25,820 --> 00:25:22,639
that might happen more most commonly in

553
00:25:28,879 --> 00:25:25,830
the ARCA typical near-death experience I

554
00:25:31,159 --> 00:25:28,889
think also and you also discussed I

555
00:25:36,739 --> 00:25:31,169
think your most interesting case to you

556
00:25:40,220 --> 00:25:36,749
as patient 10 yes 10 was a really

557
00:25:42,379 --> 00:25:40,230
interesting case so ok well in general

558
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:42,389
the kind of things that the patients

559
00:25:47,269 --> 00:25:44,369
reported in the hospital research the

560
00:25:49,850 --> 00:25:47,279
common things were entering into another

561
00:25:52,549 --> 00:25:49,860
realm and where they met up with

562
00:25:54,230 --> 00:25:52,559
deceased relatives and friends and that

563
00:25:56,180 --> 00:25:54,240
was the most common thing was meeting up

564
00:25:58,940 --> 00:25:56,190
with the deceased relatives or friends

565
00:26:01,580 --> 00:25:58,950
now before I'd started my research I was

566
00:26:03,980 --> 00:26:01,590
very aware that people do meet up with

567
00:26:05,629 --> 00:26:03,990
relatives and friends but what I found

568
00:26:07,730 --> 00:26:05,639
was a little bit different in my

569
00:26:10,430 --> 00:26:07,740
research is that some of these relative

570
00:26:12,859 --> 00:26:10,440
names were angry at sea and their loved

571
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:12,869
ones there and they were pointing their

572
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:14,970
fingers at that one lady in my research

573
00:26:19,249 --> 00:26:17,369
said when I went to that other place my

574
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:19,259
mother was there and I was so happy to

575
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:21,570
see her but she was really angry at me

576
00:26:25,700 --> 00:26:23,369
and she was pointing her finger at me

577
00:26:27,230 --> 00:26:25,710
and saying what are you doing here it's

578
00:26:29,060 --> 00:26:27,240
as if I shouldn't have been there she

579
00:26:31,999 --> 00:26:29,070
was saying you go back down you go back

580
00:26:35,180 --> 00:26:32,009
to the children and she ended up back

581
00:26:37,669 --> 00:26:35,190
with the children and there was another

582
00:26:39,799 --> 00:26:37,679
man who said he found himself in this

583
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:39,809
blackness all of a sudden and it was

584
00:26:44,779 --> 00:26:42,090
like a bit like a tunnel and he said in

585
00:26:46,549 --> 00:26:44,789
that tunnel were friends and colleagues

586
00:26:46,820 --> 00:26:46,559
that he'd used to work with and they

587
00:26:51,620 --> 00:26:46,830
were

588
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:51,630
was there and he felt really bad because

589
00:26:55,909 --> 00:26:53,970
he felt oh I shouldn't really be here

590
00:26:58,519 --> 00:26:55,919
and they were very angry at him and

591
00:27:01,279 --> 00:26:58,529
shouting at him so that was something

592
00:27:04,130 --> 00:27:01,289
that I wasn't expecting where they the

593
00:27:07,100 --> 00:27:04,140
dead relatives displayed kind of anger

594
00:27:09,110 --> 00:27:07,110
or annoyance at them and be in there Wow

595
00:27:12,470 --> 00:27:09,120
so that yeah so that was quite

596
00:27:14,060 --> 00:27:12,480
interesting but you know the majority of

597
00:27:16,250 --> 00:27:14,070
people have felt it was a lovely

598
00:27:17,870 --> 00:27:16,260
experience and that they they wanted to

599
00:27:21,169 --> 00:27:17,880
stay there and they were quite happy to

600
00:27:23,539 --> 00:27:21,179
stay there and they didn't want to come

601
00:27:26,180 --> 00:27:23,549
back to life and I think the most

602
00:27:29,419 --> 00:27:26,190
interesting case in my research was the

603
00:27:31,279 --> 00:27:29,429
case of patient 10 and it was

604
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:31,289
fascinating because I was there at the

605
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:33,330
time it was happening only I didn't

606
00:27:38,450 --> 00:27:36,210
realize until I the patient fully

607
00:27:41,779 --> 00:27:38,460
regained consciousness about four hours

608
00:27:43,730 --> 00:27:41,789
later so we would put him to sit in the

609
00:27:46,269 --> 00:27:43,740
chair he was recovering from critical

610
00:27:48,860 --> 00:27:46,279
illness and he was doing very well and

611
00:27:50,799 --> 00:27:48,870
when he was sat in the chair I noticed

612
00:27:53,659 --> 00:27:50,809
that his breathing pattern had changed

613
00:27:56,180 --> 00:27:53,669
his oxygen levels dropped a little bit

614
00:27:58,789 --> 00:27:56,190
so he still had a truckie ostomy so I

615
00:28:02,330 --> 00:27:58,799
give him some extra oxygen into the

616
00:28:04,909 --> 00:28:02,340
tracheostomy and then he went cold and

617
00:28:06,860 --> 00:28:04,919
clammy and his blood pressure started to

618
00:28:09,799 --> 00:28:06,870
drop and all of these were signs that a

619
00:28:11,570 --> 00:28:09,809
cardiac arrest could have happened so I

620
00:28:14,180 --> 00:28:11,580
quickly called my colleagues and we got

621
00:28:16,549 --> 00:28:14,190
him back into bed but by this time he

622
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:16,559
was deeply unconscious and he wasn't

623
00:28:20,690 --> 00:28:18,330
responding to painful stimuli

624
00:28:22,730 --> 00:28:20,700
the doctor had been called and he came

625
00:28:24,769 --> 00:28:22,740
to review and give some fluid for his

626
00:28:27,649 --> 00:28:24,779
blood pressure but then the doctor had

627
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:27,659
to go back to another emergency and then

628
00:28:32,330 --> 00:28:29,610
after a few minutes his leg pressure

629
00:28:34,279 --> 00:28:32,340
began to deteriorate again so my

630
00:28:36,889 --> 00:28:34,289
colleague kept an eye while I went to

631
00:28:39,110 --> 00:28:36,899
find another doctor so this doctor just

632
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:39,120
he was literally just walking on duty

633
00:28:43,909 --> 00:28:41,010
that morning and so I said quick can you

634
00:28:46,490 --> 00:28:43,919
come and review my patient so he did and

635
00:28:48,919 --> 00:28:46,500
he shone a pupil torch in his eyes to

636
00:28:51,379 --> 00:28:48,929
check that his pupils were reacting we

637
00:28:53,870 --> 00:28:51,389
treated it again his blood pressure with

638
00:28:55,399 --> 00:28:53,880
some more fluid and after about 20

639
00:28:58,039 --> 00:28:55,409
minutes the doctor was satisfied that

640
00:29:00,010 --> 00:28:58,049
his condition had stabilized and he went

641
00:29:03,580 --> 00:29:00,020
off to his office

642
00:29:05,650 --> 00:29:03,590
I we were calling the patient trying to

643
00:29:07,450 --> 00:29:05,660
rouse him but he was not responding to

644
00:29:10,420 --> 00:29:07,460
anything at all he was deeply deeply

645
00:29:12,220 --> 00:29:10,430
unconscious but after that 20 minutes he

646
00:29:14,650 --> 00:29:12,230
started to kind of flicker his eyelids

647
00:29:17,290 --> 00:29:14,660
and started to move his limbs and these

648
00:29:19,980 --> 00:29:17,300
were all signs of regaining neurological

649
00:29:24,250 --> 00:29:19,990
function so we were happy that he was

650
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:24,260
doing well now about four I was later he

651
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:26,450
regained full consciousness and this was

652
00:29:31,810 --> 00:29:28,490
a as the doctors were doing their ward

653
00:29:33,670 --> 00:29:31,820
round and he was very excited about

654
00:29:34,870 --> 00:29:33,680
something and he was trying to talk but

655
00:29:37,630 --> 00:29:34,880
he couldn't because he had a truckie

656
00:29:41,140 --> 00:29:37,640
ostomy so the physiotherapist got a

657
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:41,150
letter board and he spelled I died and I

658
00:29:45,460 --> 00:29:43,970
watched it all from above and the doctor

659
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:45,470
said oh you'd better tell penny about

660
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:49,250
that and he would but the thing about

661
00:29:52,450 --> 00:29:50,210
the doctors that he actually

662
00:29:54,130 --> 00:29:52,460
acknowledged that and he he documented

663
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:54,140
it in the patient's notes that he

664
00:29:59,140 --> 00:29:56,330
revived and reported in near-death

665
00:30:02,050 --> 00:29:59,150
experience and when I interviewed this

666
00:30:05,350 --> 00:30:02,060
patient he described that he'd left his

667
00:30:07,900 --> 00:30:05,360
body he was looking down from above and

668
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:07,910
he described my actions

669
00:30:12,730 --> 00:30:10,010
he described the actions of the doctor

670
00:30:15,070 --> 00:30:12,740
and correctly identified which doctor

671
00:30:16,930 --> 00:30:15,080
had examined him although he hadn't been

672
00:30:19,450 --> 00:30:16,940
around prior to the patient losing

673
00:30:22,390 --> 00:30:19,460
consciousness and he also described the

674
00:30:23,980 --> 00:30:22,400
physiotherapist looking very nervous and

675
00:30:26,740 --> 00:30:23,990
poking her head around the curtains

676
00:30:28,420 --> 00:30:26,750
while all of these things happened but

677
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:28,430
they happened during the time when he

678
00:30:32,710 --> 00:30:30,650
was deeply unconscious and his eyes were

679
00:30:35,230 --> 00:30:32,720
closed the only time his eyes were open

680
00:30:38,110 --> 00:30:35,240
was very briefly when the doctor shown

681
00:30:40,390 --> 00:30:38,120
that people torch in them so he

682
00:30:42,790 --> 00:30:40,400
described everything with great accuracy

683
00:30:44,980 --> 00:30:42,800
and I know it he was accurate because I

684
00:30:47,890 --> 00:30:44,990
was there at the time and he also

685
00:30:51,820 --> 00:30:47,900
described going upwards into a pink room

686
00:30:54,550 --> 00:30:51,830
where he met his dead father and a lady

687
00:30:56,530 --> 00:30:54,560
who he didn't know but he recognized

688
00:30:57,250 --> 00:30:56,540
from the photos it's it was his dead

689
00:30:59,740 --> 00:30:57,260
mother inlaw

690
00:31:02,140 --> 00:30:59,750
and he also saw a man who he said I'm

691
00:31:04,300 --> 00:31:02,150
not sure who that man was but it might

692
00:31:07,150 --> 00:31:04,310
well have been Jesus but it's not what I

693
00:31:09,510 --> 00:31:07,160
expect to look like because his hair was

694
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:09,520
long and scruffy and needed to be told

695
00:31:13,510 --> 00:31:12,650
and he said he also had very piercing

696
00:31:15,850 --> 00:31:13,520
eyes and

697
00:31:17,770 --> 00:31:15,860
was drawn to look at his eyes but he

698
00:31:19,780 --> 00:31:17,780
said he was so happy there all his pain

699
00:31:23,380 --> 00:31:19,790
had disappeared he was really in a

700
00:31:25,450 --> 00:31:23,390
blissful state but the Jesus type figure

701
00:31:27,790 --> 00:31:25,460
said no it's not your time you have to

702
00:31:30,310 --> 00:31:27,800
go back and he said he started to fade

703
00:31:32,590 --> 00:31:30,320
backwards and as soon as he faded back

704
00:31:35,650 --> 00:31:32,600
that image has faded in front of him and

705
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:35,660
he ended up back in his body and he said

706
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:37,730
he was in immediate pain and he said the

707
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:39,770
pain was so bad that he wished that he

708
00:31:46,270 --> 00:31:43,490
died no I love ya he said it was really

709
00:31:48,190 --> 00:31:46,280
terrible terrible thing but the

710
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:48,200
interesting aspect about this case was

711
00:31:53,260 --> 00:31:51,050
that when I interviewed him in depth he

712
00:31:57,220 --> 00:31:53,270
misinterpreted one of my questions and

713
00:31:59,020 --> 00:31:57,230
this man has cerebral palsy he was 60

714
00:32:01,480 --> 00:31:59,030
years of age at the time this happened

715
00:32:04,510 --> 00:32:01,490
and his right hand is always in a

716
00:32:08,020 --> 00:32:04,520
permanently contracted position so it's

717
00:32:10,630 --> 00:32:08,030
in like a claw like machine but after

718
00:32:13,420 --> 00:32:10,640
his experience he is now been able to

719
00:32:15,970 --> 00:32:13,430
open out his hand fully and there is no

720
00:32:17,170 --> 00:32:15,980
physiological explanation for this I've

721
00:32:19,630 --> 00:32:17,180
asked the doctors and the

722
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:19,640
physiotherapists about it and they said

723
00:32:24,580 --> 00:32:22,010
it shouldn't be possible without surgery

724
00:32:26,110 --> 00:32:24,590
to release the tendons because the

725
00:32:28,930 --> 00:32:26,120
tendons would be in a permanently

726
00:32:31,090 --> 00:32:28,940
contracted position but no such surgery

727
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:31,100
was carried out there was no hand

728
00:32:36,070 --> 00:32:34,130
physiotherapy carried out so that is

729
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:36,080
something that really fascinates me

730
00:32:40,990 --> 00:32:38,690
because as a result of his near-death

731
00:32:43,270 --> 00:32:41,000
experience he can now open at his hand

732
00:32:45,130 --> 00:32:43,280
now if we understood that in more depth

733
00:32:49,270 --> 00:32:45,140
there are millions of people out there

734
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:49,280
who have similar ailments and there may

735
00:32:53,470 --> 00:32:51,170
be some techniques that therapeutic

736
00:32:55,570 --> 00:32:53,480
techniques that we could develop that

737
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:55,580
would you know really help a lot of

738
00:32:59,320 --> 00:32:57,050
people without them having to have

739
00:33:00,460 --> 00:32:59,330
surgery so I think that's a fascinating

740
00:33:04,210 --> 00:33:00,470
aspect

741
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:04,220
well meditation to the point of you know

742
00:33:09,010 --> 00:33:06,050
kind of being out of your body might

743
00:33:10,540 --> 00:33:09,020
might help a bit but that is you know

744
00:33:13,540 --> 00:33:10,550
when I read that in your book I was

745
00:33:17,410 --> 00:33:13,550
really fascinated by that from a variety

746
00:33:20,530 --> 00:33:17,420
of viewpoints but with me being even

747
00:33:23,290 --> 00:33:20,540
though I work as an intuitive reader I

748
00:33:25,510 --> 00:33:23,300
am a very practical person and I

749
00:33:26,649 --> 00:33:25,520
realized that to convince people of

750
00:33:30,849 --> 00:33:26,659
these

751
00:33:33,070 --> 00:33:30,859
phenomena which are very real it so much

752
00:33:36,219 --> 00:33:33,080
helps to have like this veridical

753
00:33:42,639 --> 00:33:36,229
evidence like this gentleman had it's

754
00:33:46,690 --> 00:33:42,649
very very important to spread the news

755
00:33:48,909 --> 00:33:46,700
about this phenomena I believe oh yeah

756
00:33:51,249 --> 00:33:48,919
absolutely and I really hope that there

757
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:51,259
are other nurses out there who would

758
00:33:54,940 --> 00:33:53,090
follow in my footsteps as well and do

759
00:33:56,710 --> 00:33:54,950
their own research because the more

760
00:33:58,629 --> 00:33:56,720
people do in this research the more

761
00:34:01,359 --> 00:33:58,639
likely we are to come across more cases

762
00:34:03,759 --> 00:34:01,369
and they're of great benefit to everyone

763
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:03,769
so I think it's really important that

764
00:34:09,369 --> 00:34:05,570
more people are inspired to do more

765
00:34:12,879 --> 00:34:09,379
research I had just been writing an

766
00:34:14,710 --> 00:34:12,889
article for a private blog and so I

767
00:34:17,049 --> 00:34:14,720
can't tell you the identity of this

768
00:34:21,210 --> 00:34:17,059
person but the interview that I did with

769
00:34:24,579 --> 00:34:21,220
this person he was explaining his um his

770
00:34:27,099 --> 00:34:24,589
mists of his spiritual progression you

771
00:34:30,220 --> 00:34:27,109
might say but when he was in college he

772
00:34:33,399 --> 00:34:30,230
had a knee operation he was nowhere near

773
00:34:36,940 --> 00:34:33,409
death it was you know he was under

774
00:34:40,089 --> 00:34:36,950
anesthesia it was an involved autoscopic

775
00:34:42,819 --> 00:34:40,099
type knee operation he had to be on the

776
00:34:45,609 --> 00:34:42,829
operating table for a significant period

777
00:34:49,149 --> 00:34:45,619
of time and he did float out of his body

778
00:34:50,829 --> 00:34:49,159
and he did identify things outside of

779
00:34:55,139 --> 00:34:50,839
his body that he had no business knowing

780
00:34:57,849 --> 00:34:55,149
and that in fact was the start of his

781
00:35:01,150 --> 00:34:57,859
spiritual journey so these things have a

782
00:35:03,670 --> 00:35:01,160
great effect on individuals I wonder if

783
00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:03,680
you could speak a little bit to the

784
00:35:09,099 --> 00:35:05,510
differences that you've turned up

785
00:35:11,380 --> 00:35:09,109
culturally yes well people from

786
00:35:14,079 --> 00:35:11,390
different cultures experienced the

787
00:35:18,250 --> 00:35:14,089
experience in a very different way so

788
00:35:20,410 --> 00:35:18,260
for example whereas in the West it's to

789
00:35:23,049 --> 00:35:20,420
do with sometimes the the images that

790
00:35:25,329 --> 00:35:23,059
they see and the deities that they meet

791
00:35:28,750 --> 00:35:25,339
so in the West it's more likely to be

792
00:35:31,450 --> 00:35:28,760
someone of Jesus or Mary whereas in

793
00:35:35,500 --> 00:35:31,460
India for example they're more likely to

794
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:35,510
see yama or the god of the dead or

795
00:35:39,609 --> 00:35:37,490
yamadutas which are messengers of the

796
00:35:40,420 --> 00:35:39,619
god of the dead or sometimes there's

797
00:35:46,329 --> 00:35:40,430
chitragupt

798
00:35:49,270 --> 00:35:46,339
the book and it's a book of Deeds and

799
00:35:51,339 --> 00:35:49,280
the deeds of the person's life so it's

800
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:51,349
almost as if in India the the life

801
00:35:56,370 --> 00:35:54,170
review is replaced by looking in this

802
00:35:58,540 --> 00:35:56,380
book of Deeds of the person and

803
00:36:00,700 --> 00:35:58,550
depending on the kind of deeds that

804
00:36:03,250 --> 00:36:00,710
they've done in their life that decides

805
00:36:06,010 --> 00:36:03,260
where the kind of journey that they go

806
00:36:08,650 --> 00:36:06,020
on to from that point though there's

807
00:36:11,020 --> 00:36:08,660
those sorts of cultural differences as

808
00:36:14,020 --> 00:36:11,030
well and I think that the biggest one is

809
00:36:16,150 --> 00:36:14,030
between probably India as well that that

810
00:36:19,450 --> 00:36:16,160
reminded me when I read that in in your

811
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:19,460
book about the the fellow with the book

812
00:36:25,329 --> 00:36:23,210
of Deeds and sort of in Southeast Asia -

813
00:36:28,750 --> 00:36:25,339
if I'm not mistaken it reminded me so

814
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:28,760
much of the the famous poem Abu Ben Adam

815
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:33,010
are you familiar with that poem no no I

816
00:36:39,370 --> 00:36:36,650
promise you dr. penny Satori I will send

817
00:36:42,180 --> 00:36:39,380
it to you when our interview is done I

818
00:36:44,829 --> 00:36:42,190
think you would find remarkable

819
00:36:49,510 --> 00:36:44,839
concurrence between that poem and the

820
00:36:51,130 --> 00:36:49,520
the the tradition in India so just let

821
00:36:53,349 --> 00:36:51,140
slate here again because we're about at

822
00:36:57,099 --> 00:36:53,359
the middle of our podcast Kate we're

823
00:36:59,890 --> 00:36:57,109
interviewing dr. penny Sartori her book

824
00:37:03,309 --> 00:36:59,900
the wisdom of near-death experiences and

825
00:37:06,630 --> 00:37:03,319
you do have a website as well right dr.

826
00:37:12,730 --> 00:37:06,640
penny yes I do the website is

827
00:37:17,609 --> 00:37:12,740
www.seannal.com it's sa RT ori that's

828
00:37:22,329 --> 00:37:17,619
right and are you still collecting uh

829
00:37:24,970 --> 00:37:22,339
the people's accounts yes I am I'm very

830
00:37:27,190 --> 00:37:24,980
very slow with responding to people and

831
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:27,200
I've I've got a massive backlog of

832
00:37:32,950 --> 00:37:29,450
people who have actually emailed me so

833
00:37:34,750 --> 00:37:32,960
um I'm currently in search of a research

834
00:37:37,690 --> 00:37:34,760
assistant to help me with that because I

835
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:37,700
just can't manage working full time +

836
00:37:42,460 --> 00:37:40,490
doing my NDE work plus my family life as

837
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:42,470
well so I need to get a research

838
00:37:48,730 --> 00:37:45,410
assistant so I'm still collecting cases

839
00:37:51,130 --> 00:37:48,740
and I will answer you it'll just take a

840
00:37:53,860 --> 00:37:51,140
little bit of time that's all so are you

841
00:37:57,220 --> 00:37:53,870
working on a particular

842
00:37:59,470 --> 00:37:57,230
study right now that is involved in

843
00:38:02,050 --> 00:37:59,480
these areas is there something that we

844
00:38:04,810 --> 00:38:02,060
can look forward to seeing from you in

845
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:04,820
in the not-too-distant future well I've

846
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:08,570
just completed a manuscript for another

847
00:38:14,140 --> 00:38:10,850
book that I've co-authored with a lady

848
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:14,150
called Kelly Walsh and this is about the

849
00:38:18,970 --> 00:38:16,090
transformative aspects of near-death

850
00:38:20,890 --> 00:38:18,980
experiences so the book is called the

851
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:20,900
transformative power of near-death

852
00:38:27,070 --> 00:38:23,690
experiences and that should be released

853
00:38:29,770 --> 00:38:27,080
in the UK I think in about the or in the

854
00:38:33,430 --> 00:38:29,780
fall of this year so around about

855
00:38:36,390 --> 00:38:33,440
October November and what we've done is

856
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:36,400
the we realize that you know near-death

857
00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:38,810
experiences can really transform

858
00:38:43,630 --> 00:38:40,730
people's lives in many different ways

859
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:43,640
and we've got many great cases where

860
00:38:49,660 --> 00:38:45,650
people have been totally changed by

861
00:38:50,950 --> 00:38:49,670
their experience and they have put the

862
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:50,960
way that they've been changed they've

863
00:38:56,860 --> 00:38:54,050
put it into action so the lady who I've

864
00:39:00,400 --> 00:38:56,870
co-authored with is called Kelly Walsh

865
00:39:03,970 --> 00:39:00,410
and she had an experience after she'd

866
00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:03,980
had a suicide attempt and she was very

867
00:39:08,410 --> 00:39:06,320
depressed at the time and very anxious

868
00:39:11,860 --> 00:39:08,420
and things had built up over many years

869
00:39:14,980 --> 00:39:11,870
and when she was recovering on the

870
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:14,990
psychiatric ward she had a very profound

871
00:39:19,980 --> 00:39:17,450
spiritually transformative experience

872
00:39:23,350 --> 00:39:19,990
and it completely changed her life and

873
00:39:24,370 --> 00:39:23,360
when she came out of her experience when

874
00:39:26,970 --> 00:39:24,380
she was on the ward

875
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:26,980
she kept saying to everyone around her

876
00:39:30,820 --> 00:39:29,810
like-minded Souls are coming together to

877
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:30,830
change the world

878
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:33,050
and she kept repeating that over and

879
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:36,530
over and since they yeah and you know

880
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:38,290
she's been totally transformed she's

881
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:40,850
networked with people from all over the

882
00:39:45,340 --> 00:39:43,370
world and she's got some really great

883
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:45,350
examples together of people who've had

884
00:39:50,110 --> 00:39:48,410
transformative experiences and that's

885
00:39:52,210 --> 00:39:50,120
what this book is going to be about and

886
00:39:55,330 --> 00:39:52,220
and Kelly as a result of her experience

887
00:39:58,090 --> 00:39:55,340
all that depression and anxiety that

888
00:40:00,640 --> 00:39:58,100
she'd felt most of her life growing up

889
00:40:02,290 --> 00:40:00,650
from us being a small child that was

890
00:40:04,660 --> 00:40:02,300
transformed as a result of that

891
00:40:07,620 --> 00:40:04,670
experience and I just think that's so

892
00:40:10,329 --> 00:40:07,630
powerful because we haven't got any

893
00:40:13,109 --> 00:40:10,339
pharmaceutical drugs that could have

894
00:40:16,029 --> 00:40:13,119
such an effect on depression and anxiety

895
00:40:18,069 --> 00:40:16,039
yet these experiences have transformed

896
00:40:20,729 --> 00:40:18,079
that into something very positive for

897
00:40:23,769 --> 00:40:20,739
her and she's also now known as

898
00:40:25,779 --> 00:40:23,779
positivity princess and she's DeVoe

899
00:40:28,089 --> 00:40:25,789
yeah she's developed a children's

900
00:40:30,759 --> 00:40:28,099
character which is there to support

901
00:40:32,519 --> 00:40:30,769
young children and to help them through

902
00:40:35,410 --> 00:40:32,529
if ever they feel anxious or depressed

903
00:40:38,709 --> 00:40:35,420
so it's all about empowering other

904
00:40:41,019 --> 00:40:38,719
people as well so it's it's gonna be an

905
00:40:43,150 --> 00:40:41,029
interesting book to read about because

906
00:40:44,859 --> 00:40:43,160
there's so many people whose lives have

907
00:40:47,559 --> 00:40:44,869
been transformed as a result of their

908
00:40:49,630 --> 00:40:47,569
experience and they all say at the end

909
00:40:51,519 --> 00:40:49,640
of the day that it's all down to that

910
00:40:55,660 --> 00:40:51,529
interconnectivity and that we're all

911
00:40:58,150 --> 00:40:55,670
loved at the end no no I was just gonna

912
00:41:01,029 --> 00:40:58,160
say but a lot of times regardless of

913
00:41:03,519 --> 00:41:01,039
what aspect of the paranormal you are

914
00:41:06,130 --> 00:41:03,529
interested in or investigating it tends

915
00:41:08,380 --> 00:41:06,140
to get you know sort of smirk that by

916
00:41:10,660 --> 00:41:08,390
the rest of the population but that is

917
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:10,670
actually the essential idea of studying

918
00:41:15,329 --> 00:41:13,130
the paranormal is to turn it into normal

919
00:41:18,430 --> 00:41:15,339
to understand what's been going on and I

920
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:18,440
think your your studies have proven that

921
00:41:23,650 --> 00:41:20,930
I mean from what had been a paranormal

922
00:41:26,109 --> 00:41:23,660
aspect it's now becoming very useful

923
00:41:30,339 --> 00:41:26,119
very normal and it's very worthwhile and

924
00:41:32,979 --> 00:41:30,349
and your and your achievements in both

925
00:41:35,099 --> 00:41:32,989
your studies and becoming a doctor and

926
00:41:38,019 --> 00:41:35,109
becoming a nurse and working

927
00:41:40,630 --> 00:41:38,029
professionally with respect from those

928
00:41:43,599 --> 00:41:40,640
around you does an enormous amount to

929
00:41:46,809 --> 00:41:43,609
raise the standards of what people think

930
00:41:48,130 --> 00:41:46,819
about it I have one while I have more

931
00:41:49,870 --> 00:41:48,140
than one further question but I have one

932
00:41:52,569 --> 00:41:49,880
question at this juncture I don't think

933
00:41:54,939 --> 00:41:52,579
any interview would be complete without

934
00:41:57,249 --> 00:41:54,949
talking about something you touched upon

935
00:41:59,049 --> 00:41:57,259
just now and something that you did

936
00:42:01,390 --> 00:41:59,059
cover quite thoroughly in your book

937
00:42:04,089 --> 00:42:01,400
those two things are sometimes people

938
00:42:06,130 --> 00:42:04,099
have negative or hellish experiences

939
00:42:08,769 --> 00:42:06,140
that's the first thing and the second

940
00:42:13,109 --> 00:42:08,779
thing is the effect of the near-death

941
00:42:15,999 --> 00:42:13,119
experience on suicide suicided people

942
00:42:19,299 --> 00:42:16,009
yeah so I you didn't speak a little

943
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:19,309
another this wonderful woman Kelly who I

944
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:21,410
assume is somewhere in the UK

945
00:42:26,770 --> 00:42:24,410
working with you but there have been

946
00:42:30,610 --> 00:42:26,780
other people that you had mentioned who

947
00:42:32,230 --> 00:42:30,620
had frightening near-death experiences

948
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:32,240
and there are people who get depressed

949
00:42:37,260 --> 00:42:34,090
after it because they can't go back

950
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:37,270
quote-unquote home again right away so

951
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:39,770
aside from the people who can't go back

952
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:42,290
to the near-death experience right away

953
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:43,850
what about the people who have had

954
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:45,650
hellish experiences and what about

955
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:48,410
suicides in general yep

956
00:42:53,350 --> 00:42:50,410
right well with the the distressing

957
00:42:58,950 --> 00:42:53,360
experiences now these are very difficult

958
00:43:01,420 --> 00:42:58,960
to research because there's a some some

959
00:43:04,030 --> 00:43:01,430
experiences are so bad that it can be

960
00:43:06,460 --> 00:43:04,040
very traumatic just recalling the

961
00:43:07,990 --> 00:43:06,470
experience itself but not only that

962
00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:08,000
there's also some sort of stigma

963
00:43:12,490 --> 00:43:10,250
involved as well because people hear

964
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:12,500
about all these lovely experiences and

965
00:43:17,020 --> 00:43:14,690
then if they've had a distressing kind

966
00:43:18,940 --> 00:43:17,030
they think what's wrong with me what

967
00:43:21,250 --> 00:43:18,950
have I done I must be a really bad

968
00:43:24,340 --> 00:43:21,260
person to have had this distressing kind

969
00:43:26,260 --> 00:43:24,350
of experience now it's nothing the the

970
00:43:28,930 --> 00:43:26,270
there's not much research out there and

971
00:43:32,710 --> 00:43:28,940
Nancy Evans Bush is done a lot the most

972
00:43:35,770 --> 00:43:32,720
in this area and it doesn't seem to be

973
00:43:37,540 --> 00:43:35,780
the moral character of the person it's

974
00:43:39,850 --> 00:43:37,550
nothing to do with that because even the

975
00:43:44,890 --> 00:43:39,860
nicest of people can have really

976
00:43:48,190 --> 00:43:44,900
distressing experiences but we don't

977
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:48,200
know what by there is a possibility that

978
00:43:53,350 --> 00:43:50,570
it might be something to do with the ego

979
00:43:55,330 --> 00:43:53,360
and people are holding on and clinging

980
00:43:58,150 --> 00:43:55,340
on to life and like resisting the

981
00:44:01,060 --> 00:43:58,160
experience and it seems that when they

982
00:44:04,180 --> 00:44:01,070
kind of relax into the experience it can

983
00:44:05,950 --> 00:44:04,190
turn into a more pleasant experience so

984
00:44:07,690 --> 00:44:05,960
there's a few cases where this

985
00:44:10,630 --> 00:44:07,700
distressing kind of turned into a

986
00:44:14,350 --> 00:44:10,640
pleasant experience there's a recent

987
00:44:17,140 --> 00:44:14,360
case actually of dr. received party and

988
00:44:19,990 --> 00:44:17,150
he his book has just come out and he

989
00:44:22,210 --> 00:44:20,000
describes where he started off going in

990
00:44:24,610 --> 00:44:22,220
to like a hellish realm and he could

991
00:44:26,860 --> 00:44:24,620
smell burning flesh and he could see big

992
00:44:30,610 --> 00:44:26,870
rage and thunderstorms in the background

993
00:44:32,860 --> 00:44:30,620
and he said me had a realization during

994
00:44:35,259 --> 00:44:32,870
his experience and he thought I've been

995
00:44:37,630 --> 00:44:35,269
living my life in a very unforgiving way

996
00:44:39,789 --> 00:44:37,640
I've not been I don't forgive myself and

997
00:44:41,919 --> 00:44:39,799
I don't forgive others and as soon as he

998
00:44:44,229 --> 00:44:41,929
had that realization of the way that he

999
00:44:46,359 --> 00:44:44,239
was living his life that changed into a

1000
00:44:50,469 --> 00:44:46,369
very pleasant experience from that point

1001
00:44:52,989 --> 00:44:50,479
on so a lot of people kind of also feel

1002
00:44:54,759 --> 00:44:52,999
that sometimes although it's a

1003
00:44:57,370 --> 00:44:54,769
distressing experience at the time

1004
00:44:59,769 --> 00:44:57,380
sometimes it can act like a wake-up call

1005
00:45:02,709 --> 00:44:59,779
as well and people think well I've been

1006
00:45:04,929 --> 00:45:02,719
living my life in this way and it kind

1007
00:45:08,349 --> 00:45:04,939
of jolts them into a new way of living

1008
00:45:11,099 --> 00:45:08,359
their life after the experience so but

1009
00:45:13,329 --> 00:45:11,109
we with an egg distress in near-death

1010
00:45:16,479 --> 00:45:13,339
experiences they are far more difficult

1011
00:45:17,979 --> 00:45:16,489
to research because people simply don't

1012
00:45:20,289 --> 00:45:17,989
want to talk about them if they've had

1013
00:45:22,079 --> 00:45:20,299
the really distressing kind where they

1014
00:45:25,149 --> 00:45:22,089
feel like they've been in hell and

1015
00:45:26,889 --> 00:45:25,159
sometimes when people email me they'll

1016
00:45:28,959 --> 00:45:26,899
email me and say are you still

1017
00:45:31,779 --> 00:45:28,969
interested in the distressing kind of

1018
00:45:33,549 --> 00:45:31,789
experiences I'll say yes if you were

1019
00:45:36,489 --> 00:45:33,559
going to open up and tell me about your

1020
00:45:37,359 --> 00:45:36,499
experience and then maybe in about three

1021
00:45:39,489 --> 00:45:37,369
months time

1022
00:45:41,469 --> 00:45:39,499
I'll get another letter email from that

1023
00:45:43,509 --> 00:45:41,479
person and they'll give a little bit of

1024
00:45:45,789 --> 00:45:43,519
information but not much and then

1025
00:45:47,439 --> 00:45:45,799
sometimes I won't hear from them for

1026
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:47,449
about another three or six months and

1027
00:45:52,209 --> 00:45:49,130
they'll start to give me more

1028
00:45:54,609 --> 00:45:52,219
information bit by bit so it's it's not

1029
00:45:57,789 --> 00:45:54,619
easy for them to kind of recall and

1030
00:46:01,169 --> 00:45:57,799
write about hmm that's curious

1031
00:46:05,469 --> 00:46:01,179
and itself the the time delay aspect

1032
00:46:08,499 --> 00:46:05,479
okay and and what about suicides there's

1033
00:46:11,879 --> 00:46:08,509
a lot of disagreement amongst spiritual

1034
00:46:16,689 --> 00:46:11,889
communities in the United States about

1035
00:46:20,319 --> 00:46:16,699
the effects of suicide on the purported

1036
00:46:22,959 --> 00:46:20,329
soul of the individual that if they've

1037
00:46:24,579 --> 00:46:22,969
suicided themselves they they're you

1038
00:46:26,679 --> 00:46:24,589
know they're sort of demoted on a

1039
00:46:28,389 --> 00:46:26,689
spiritual realm and they must come back

1040
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:28,399
and they they have unfinished business

1041
00:46:34,209 --> 00:46:31,729
and then there is another camp that says

1042
00:46:37,749 --> 00:46:34,219
sometimes people take their lives and

1043
00:46:40,029 --> 00:46:37,759
they're forgiven and things go on now

1044
00:46:42,849 --> 00:46:40,039
I'm going really far into the

1045
00:46:46,769 --> 00:46:42,859
hypothetical here but is there anything

1046
00:46:48,100 --> 00:46:46,779
that you can enlighten us in that regard

1047
00:46:51,370 --> 00:46:48,110
well it was

1048
00:46:54,150 --> 00:46:51,380
some research done a good few years ago

1049
00:46:57,910 --> 00:46:54,160
now and people who had previously made

1050
00:47:01,900 --> 00:46:57,920
multiple suicide attempts if they had a

1051
00:47:04,650 --> 00:47:01,910
near-death experience what they found

1052
00:47:07,630 --> 00:47:04,660
was that they were less likely to

1053
00:47:09,580 --> 00:47:07,640
attempt suicide again if they had the

1054
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:09,590
near-death experiences they realized

1055
00:47:14,260 --> 00:47:12,050
that they take their problems wherever

1056
00:47:16,690 --> 00:47:14,270
they go and so there's no escaping them

1057
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:16,700
so they have to face their problems but

1058
00:47:20,170 --> 00:47:17,690
it also gives them a different

1059
00:47:22,030 --> 00:47:20,180
perspective on life as well so there

1060
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:22,040
were a few patients who had previously

1061
00:47:28,990 --> 00:47:26,450
had multiple experience we cite attempts

1062
00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:29,000
but on the final suicide attempt they'd

1063
00:47:34,180 --> 00:47:31,250
had the near-death experience and they

1064
00:47:36,550 --> 00:47:34,190
didn't try to commit suicide again after

1065
00:47:40,660 --> 00:47:36,560
that we had a very powerful effect on

1066
00:47:42,630 --> 00:47:40,670
them and it's also been used as well

1067
00:47:45,190 --> 00:47:42,640
there are a lot of forward-thinking

1068
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:45,200
therapists and what they do is if

1069
00:47:50,830 --> 00:47:48,050
patients are suicidal and they're having

1070
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:50,840
real problems in this area they tend to

1071
00:47:55,660 --> 00:47:52,850
encourage them to read accounts of

1072
00:47:58,210 --> 00:47:55,670
near-death experiences and really engage

1073
00:48:00,490 --> 00:47:58,220
thoroughly with what those accounts are

1074
00:48:01,780 --> 00:48:00,500
saying and what they find is that it

1075
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:01,790
starts to give people a different

1076
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:04,850
perspective on life and so it can be

1077
00:48:11,050 --> 00:48:08,810
very powerful as a deterrent to suicide

1078
00:48:13,420 --> 00:48:11,060
as well so you know there's a lot of

1079
00:48:15,820 --> 00:48:13,430
potential therapeutic benefits with

1080
00:48:17,980 --> 00:48:15,830
near-death experiences and how do you

1081
00:48:20,650 --> 00:48:17,990
deal with the so-called scientific

1082
00:48:23,350 --> 00:48:20,660
community that talks about hypoxia and

1083
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:23,360
it's see the reason this Universal is

1084
00:48:28,570 --> 00:48:25,610
because it's a universal physiological

1085
00:48:30,970 --> 00:48:28,580
effect of let's say I don't know the

1086
00:48:31,780 --> 00:48:30,980
heart stopping blood sugar decreasing in

1087
00:48:33,910 --> 00:48:31,790
the brain

1088
00:48:36,970 --> 00:48:33,920
lack of oxygen you know all the things

1089
00:48:38,350 --> 00:48:36,980
that are associated with this yeah well

1090
00:48:40,060 --> 00:48:38,360
I tried to look at those with my

1091
00:48:42,010 --> 00:48:40,070
research as well and that was some of

1092
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:42,020
the things I did you know I would took

1093
00:48:46,810 --> 00:48:45,050
blades off the patient and but I found

1094
00:48:48,910 --> 00:48:46,820
it was very difficult in some cases

1095
00:48:50,830 --> 00:48:48,920
because although it was documented in

1096
00:48:53,620 --> 00:48:50,840
the notes of blood had been withdrawn I

1097
00:48:55,450 --> 00:48:53,630
am unless I was there while it was

1098
00:48:57,820 --> 00:48:55,460
happening it was very difficult to

1099
00:48:59,890 --> 00:48:57,830
discern exactly if the blood had been

1100
00:49:02,140 --> 00:48:59,900
was drawn at the time that the person

1101
00:49:04,660 --> 00:49:02,150
was having their near-death experience

1102
00:49:07,210 --> 00:49:04,670
so in many cases a cadonia it could only

1103
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:07,220
act as a guide but there were a few

1104
00:49:11,319 --> 00:49:09,890
cases where blood was extracted at the

1105
00:49:13,089 --> 00:49:11,329
precise time when the patient was

1106
00:49:17,799 --> 00:49:13,099
unconscious and having that near-death

1107
00:49:19,450 --> 00:49:17,809
experience uh-huh and and they the blood

1108
00:49:23,190 --> 00:49:19,460
results are actually within normal

1109
00:49:25,779 --> 00:49:23,200
limits so they were but they were only

1110
00:49:27,789 --> 00:49:25,789
about two or three cases so it's not

1111
00:49:30,460 --> 00:49:27,799
enough to be statistically significant

1112
00:49:31,809 --> 00:49:30,470
but the fact that patients reported

1113
00:49:34,930 --> 00:49:31,819
having this heightened state of

1114
00:49:38,289 --> 00:49:34,940
awareness while their blood results were

1115
00:49:41,319 --> 00:49:38,299
normal was kind of didn't really fit in

1116
00:49:43,989 --> 00:49:41,329
with the the explanations that we give

1117
00:49:45,730 --> 00:49:43,999
me for near-death experiences and also

1118
00:49:47,589 --> 00:49:45,740
with the drugs as well I looked at the

1119
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:47,599
drugs that we gave to the patients yeah

1120
00:49:53,019 --> 00:49:50,450
and what I found was quite surprising

1121
00:49:56,319 --> 00:49:53,029
because I found if patients were giving

1122
00:49:58,599 --> 00:49:56,329
them drugs like morphine or the sedative

1123
00:50:01,029 --> 00:49:58,609
drugs they were less likely to report

1124
00:50:02,559 --> 00:50:01,039
and experience so that it's something

1125
00:50:06,489 --> 00:50:02,569
that was really important to me because

1126
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:06,499
I feel that it's very important that we

1127
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:08,690
don't over sedate people at the end of

1128
00:50:16,299 --> 00:50:11,930
life as well because that in itself may

1129
00:50:18,339 --> 00:50:16,309
be kind of denying them a valid aspects

1130
00:50:20,470 --> 00:50:18,349
of the dying process as well so I think

1131
00:50:22,539 --> 00:50:20,480
it's really important that we get a

1132
00:50:24,430 --> 00:50:22,549
balance right you know I don't think any

1133
00:50:26,620 --> 00:50:24,440
any patient should be in pain as they're

1134
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:26,630
approaching death but it's important

1135
00:50:31,809 --> 00:50:29,210
also that they're not all for sedated as

1136
00:50:33,670 --> 00:50:31,819
well so that they get to experience all

1137
00:50:35,819 --> 00:50:33,680
aspects of the dying process

1138
00:50:40,779 --> 00:50:35,829
you had mentioned the drug ketamine

1139
00:50:41,950 --> 00:50:40,789
which is I believe used it as a baby for

1140
00:50:45,609 --> 00:50:41,960
little children when they're getting

1141
00:50:49,479 --> 00:50:45,619
operated on and the ketamine does

1142
00:50:53,589 --> 00:50:49,489
produce sometimes a similar but not the

1143
00:50:55,779 --> 00:50:53,599
same experience is that the case yeah it

1144
00:50:57,700 --> 00:50:55,789
can do it's there are cases where

1145
00:51:00,160 --> 00:50:57,710
patients have been given ketamine and

1146
00:51:02,470 --> 00:51:00,170
reported the antibody kind of experience

1147
00:51:05,079 --> 00:51:02,480
as well so it might be that the drug

1148
00:51:07,539 --> 00:51:05,089
kind of facilitates access to an altered

1149
00:51:09,190 --> 00:51:07,549
state of consciousness rather than kind

1150
00:51:11,380 --> 00:51:09,200
of producing an altered state of

1151
00:51:15,230 --> 00:51:11,390
consciousness or or producing it and

1152
00:51:17,540 --> 00:51:15,240
experience so it's it's almost like our

1153
00:51:19,730 --> 00:51:17,550
understanding of consciousness is kind

1154
00:51:22,670 --> 00:51:19,740
of the reverse of what it should be

1155
00:51:24,770 --> 00:51:22,680
because a materialist science believes

1156
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:24,780
that consciousness is created by the

1157
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:29,490
brain and if the brain stops working

1158
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:32,010
so does consciousness but near-death

1159
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:35,850
experiences tend to throw that out the

1160
00:51:40,370 --> 00:51:38,490
window really so I think it's more

1161
00:51:42,500 --> 00:51:40,380
likely that the brain mediates

1162
00:51:44,660 --> 00:51:42,510
consciousness as opposed to creates

1163
00:51:47,810 --> 00:51:44,670
consciousness and I think the brain

1164
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:47,820
might act like a kind of a filter and it

1165
00:51:51,380 --> 00:51:49,530
screens out this heightened state of

1166
00:51:53,870 --> 00:51:51,390
awareness which is always around us

1167
00:51:56,690 --> 00:51:53,880
because we'd be too overwhelmed by it

1168
00:51:59,810 --> 00:51:56,700
but there are times in the person's life

1169
00:52:03,109 --> 00:51:59,820
when that filter action becomes more

1170
00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:03,119
relaxed so when people are near death or

1171
00:52:08,380 --> 00:52:05,250
perhaps when they've had certain drugs

1172
00:52:11,470 --> 00:52:08,390
like LSD or ketamine that filter action

1173
00:52:13,550 --> 00:52:11,480
relaxes and it facilitates that

1174
00:52:15,890 --> 00:52:13,560
experience of this heightened state of

1175
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:15,900
reality or true consciousness if you

1176
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:18,570
like yes I I would I couldn't agree with

1177
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:22,530
you more and most of the quantum

1178
00:52:29,300 --> 00:52:25,730
physicists the Max Planck's of the world

1179
00:52:31,430 --> 00:52:29,310
rest his soul would agree because he

1180
00:52:34,270 --> 00:52:31,440
said consciousness is fundamental and

1181
00:52:37,820 --> 00:52:34,280
those are the words that I live by

1182
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:37,830
personally we we're almost out of time

1183
00:52:42,740 --> 00:52:40,650
at this juncture dr. Penney and we're so

1184
00:52:46,490 --> 00:52:42,750
happy that you had joined us I have

1185
00:52:48,770 --> 00:52:46,500
maybe two last questions and do you have

1186
00:52:51,940 --> 00:52:48,780
something that you have no okay the one

1187
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:51,950
thing is along the spectrum of these

1188
00:52:59,300 --> 00:52:54,810
experiences we spoke a little bit about

1189
00:53:01,550 --> 00:52:59,310
that when I spoke of remote viewing and

1190
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:01,560
out-of-body experiences that are not

1191
00:53:08,540 --> 00:53:05,970
connected to a dying process and then

1192
00:53:11,240 --> 00:53:08,550
there are people that we interview a

1193
00:53:16,130 --> 00:53:11,250
number of these people who are involved

1194
00:53:18,620 --> 00:53:16,140
with purported UFO encounters with

1195
00:53:20,540 --> 00:53:18,630
others I'm not going to call them aliens

1196
00:53:23,300 --> 00:53:20,550
I'm not going to call them spiritual

1197
00:53:26,540 --> 00:53:23,310
beings but encounters with others while

1198
00:53:28,610 --> 00:53:26,550
very much alive and I just wanted to

1199
00:53:32,060 --> 00:53:28,620
know if you had any

1200
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:32,070
thoughts on that well in fact some of

1201
00:53:35,810 --> 00:53:33,930
the things that people report went

1202
00:53:37,670 --> 00:53:35,820
through alien abductions now I don't

1203
00:53:40,340 --> 00:53:37,680
know a great deal about this have not

1204
00:53:42,710 --> 00:53:40,350
looked into this in great depth but some

1205
00:53:44,540 --> 00:53:42,720
of the things that they report like the

1206
00:53:46,970 --> 00:53:44,550
time disappears you know there's no

1207
00:53:49,010 --> 00:53:46,980
concept of time during the experience

1208
00:53:52,010 --> 00:53:49,020
there are certain things that are quite

1209
00:53:54,860 --> 00:53:52,020
similar to near-death experiences and I

1210
00:53:57,700 --> 00:53:54,870
know back in the 1980s professor Kenneth

1211
00:54:00,140 --> 00:53:57,710
ring he also noted different

1212
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:00,150
similarities between the near-death

1213
00:54:06,670 --> 00:54:04,170
experience and alien abductions and he

1214
00:54:09,140 --> 00:54:06,680
he wrote him in one of his books about

1215
00:54:12,170 --> 00:54:09,150
these experiences as well and how

1216
00:54:14,330 --> 00:54:12,180
similar they could be so yeah it is

1217
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:14,340
something to keep an open mind about

1218
00:54:19,820 --> 00:54:17,450
really well if you say the conscious is

1219
00:54:22,580 --> 00:54:19,830
universal well then obviously it's

1220
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:22,590
universal for everybody and other

1221
00:54:26,750 --> 00:54:25,770
sentient beings as well so that that's

1222
00:54:30,460 --> 00:54:26,760
not surprising

1223
00:54:33,470 --> 00:54:30,470
not all beings are necessarily corporeal

1224
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:33,480
yeah absolutely what we can only go by

1225
00:54:37,730 --> 00:54:35,370
what we know that's that's correct

1226
00:54:39,110 --> 00:54:37,740
well dr. Penney I want to thank I hope

1227
00:54:41,930 --> 00:54:39,120
you don't mind me calling you dr. Penney

1228
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:41,940
I just said so that came up so naturally

1229
00:54:47,240 --> 00:54:45,210
here but we want to thank you so very

1230
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:47,250
much for being on shattered reality

1231
00:54:52,910 --> 00:54:51,090
podcast oh we want to invite you back to

1232
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:52,920
come on when you release your book

1233
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:54,690
either it doesn't matter if it's only

1234
00:54:59,090 --> 00:54:56,970
released in the UK or if it's in the UK

1235
00:55:02,150 --> 00:54:59,100
and the US believe it or not we do have

1236
00:55:06,070 --> 00:55:02,160
some very fervent listeners over in

1237
00:55:09,050 --> 00:55:06,080
jolly old across the pond as they say so

1238
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:09,060
we're we're looking very much forward to

1239
00:55:14,690 --> 00:55:12,810
having you back and perhaps the lady

1240
00:55:18,230 --> 00:55:14,700
Kelly Evans was it was her name Walsh

1241
00:55:20,720 --> 00:55:18,240
Walsh it was Kelly yes and books are

1242
00:55:22,610 --> 00:55:20,730
also universal now what's that books are

1243
00:55:24,140 --> 00:55:22,620
also Universal now just because they're

1244
00:55:26,030 --> 00:55:24,150
published in England doesn't mean they

1245
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:26,040
can't be right all over that's correct

1246
00:55:30,530 --> 00:55:29,010
it's on the net so so come on back and

1247
00:55:34,970 --> 00:55:30,540
why don't you just go over your

1248
00:55:37,580 --> 00:55:34,980
particular so people who may have you

1249
00:55:38,309 --> 00:55:37,590
know just tuned in or started to listen

1250
00:55:40,620 --> 00:55:38,319
or whatever

1251
00:55:42,599 --> 00:55:40,630
in in earnest those people have just

1252
00:55:46,349 --> 00:55:42,609
started to listen in earnest will

1253
00:55:47,999 --> 00:55:46,359
actually hear all your particulars yeah

1254
00:55:58,079 --> 00:55:48,009
I've got a website and the website

1255
00:56:00,059 --> 00:55:58,089
address is www.jfn.co.jp/toho present

1256
00:56:02,009 --> 00:56:00,069
but I'm hoping I would be a bit quicker

1257
00:56:06,329 --> 00:56:02,019
in the future but I'd love to hear from

1258
00:56:09,029 --> 00:56:06,339
anyone who's had an experience okay well

1259
00:56:11,989 --> 00:56:09,039
thank you this has been dr. penny

1260
00:56:15,660 --> 00:56:11,999
Sartori the wisdom of near-death

1261
00:56:18,890 --> 00:56:15,670
experiences a wonderful book which is

1262
00:56:21,809 --> 00:56:18,900
available through your booksellers oh

1263
00:56:24,689 --> 00:56:21,819
it's all over thank you so much and

1264
00:56:27,449 --> 00:56:24,699
goodbye dr. penny Sartorius thank you

1265
00:56:30,059 --> 00:56:27,459
for having me thank you

1266
00:56:34,589 --> 00:56:30,069
so shattered reality is proud to

1267
00:56:38,430 --> 00:56:34,599
introduce one of its listeners her whose

1268
00:56:42,059 --> 00:56:38,440
name is despina who is a Greek American

1269
00:56:44,789 --> 00:56:42,069
woman from a reasonably local area

1270
00:56:48,420 --> 00:56:44,799
around here and she has had a rather

1271
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:48,430
miraculous experience that she would

1272
00:56:53,370 --> 00:56:50,650
like to share with other shattered

1273
00:56:57,209 --> 00:56:53,380
reality listeners despina are you there

1274
00:57:10,739 --> 00:56:57,219
welcome to shattered reality hello thank

1275
00:57:15,930 --> 00:57:10,749
you her name was mikela State Park Ella

1276
00:57:17,549 --> 00:57:15,940
and basically her story is that her

1277
00:57:21,900 --> 00:57:17,559
mother passed away she was a young girl

1278
00:57:25,109 --> 00:57:21,910
and when the mother passed away the

1279
00:57:28,890 --> 00:57:25,119
father became a drunk and she started

1280
00:57:30,420 --> 00:57:28,900
abusing his daughter and the way the

1281
00:57:34,349 --> 00:57:30,430
story has been told to me by my

1282
00:57:35,999 --> 00:57:34,359
grandfather is that whenever he would

1283
00:57:38,549 --> 00:57:36,009
get drunk he would have used his

1284
00:57:40,949 --> 00:57:38,559
daughter so one day as opposed to

1285
00:57:42,900 --> 00:57:40,959
sitting and taking her father's abuse

1286
00:57:46,170 --> 00:57:42,910
she started running through the fields

1287
00:57:50,789 --> 00:57:46,180
and the father started teasing her with

1288
00:57:51,810 --> 00:57:50,799
the machete and whenever he would find

1289
00:57:54,090 --> 00:57:51,820
himself

1290
00:57:58,860 --> 00:57:54,100
lost and not knowing which direction she

1291
00:58:02,610 --> 00:57:58,870
went to people working in their fossil

1292
00:58:05,130 --> 00:58:02,620
and cultivating the olive trees I

1293
00:58:08,820 --> 00:58:05,140
suppose they would point to which

1294
00:58:11,670 --> 00:58:08,830
direction she ran to eventually she

1295
00:58:15,090 --> 00:58:11,680
reaches the water and she prays to God

1296
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:15,100
may he swallow her from her waist down

1297
00:58:21,090 --> 00:58:17,050
so that her father does not harm her

1298
00:58:24,270 --> 00:58:21,100
again and the story goes that indeed the

1299
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:24,280
earth opened and swallowed her and when

1300
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:26,530
the father approached her he cut off her

1301
00:58:33,990 --> 00:58:29,890
breast and I believe eventually he also

1302
00:58:37,260 --> 00:58:34,000
cut off her my grandfather had told me

1303
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:37,270
that for generations to come for those

1304
00:58:42,660 --> 00:58:39,250
individuals that actually pointed to

1305
00:58:45,540 --> 00:58:42,670
which direction she was running to their

1306
00:58:50,610 --> 00:58:45,550
children were born either with their

1307
00:58:53,700 --> 00:58:50,620
fingers crooked brightest and basically

1308
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:53,710
that their pointer finger was most

1309
00:58:59,460 --> 00:58:57,010
always deformed and it was basically as

1310
00:59:01,440 --> 00:58:59,470
my grandfather says a curse for you know

1311
00:59:05,130 --> 00:59:01,450
pointing to which direction she was

1312
00:59:08,550 --> 00:59:05,140
running so when I was a young child and

1313
00:59:12,150 --> 00:59:08,560
going through some difficult times I had

1314
00:59:15,150 --> 00:59:12,160
prayed to Saint Markella and I had said

1315
00:59:17,910 --> 00:59:15,160
that I would walk from her home from my

1316
00:59:23,490 --> 00:59:17,920
home to her home which was approximately

1317
00:59:26,370 --> 00:59:23,500
30 mile walk in the month of August so I

1318
00:59:29,910 --> 00:59:26,380
made a plan with one of my friends that

1319
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:29,920
she would wake up three hours after I

1320
00:59:36,990 --> 00:59:32,410
had started my journey at 5:00 a.m. and

1321
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:37,000
she would bring me water as needed so I

1322
00:59:40,460 --> 00:59:38,890
began my journey at approximately 5:00

1323
00:59:43,230 --> 00:59:40,470
in the morning and I started walking

1324
00:59:44,340 --> 00:59:43,240
when I finally reached the top of the

1325
00:59:49,350 --> 00:59:44,350
first mountain

1326
00:59:51,210 --> 00:59:49,360
I found myself very conflicted and very

1327
00:59:53,460 --> 00:59:51,220
angry with myself for taking such a

1328
00:59:56,250 --> 00:59:53,470
journey by myself because I was already

1329
00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:56,260
tired I took off my shoes they lit a

1330
01:00:00,270 --> 00:59:57,370
cigarette

1331
01:00:03,090 --> 01:00:00,280
trying to figure out if I'm going to

1332
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:03,100
continue on this journey and as I was

1333
01:00:05,620 --> 01:00:04,810
having these negative thoughts about

1334
01:00:11,710 --> 01:00:05,630
actually turning

1335
01:00:15,430 --> 01:00:11,720
back in August in Greece it gets very

1336
01:00:17,769 --> 01:00:15,440
hot and there is no wind rarely will you

1337
01:00:20,589 --> 01:00:17,779
feel any wind in your hair all of a

1338
01:00:24,249 --> 01:00:20,599
sudden this wind picks up where there

1339
01:00:28,509 --> 01:00:24,259
was a sign on the side of the mountain

1340
01:00:30,339 --> 01:00:28,519
and the the wind got so strong that

1341
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:30,349
these pebbles like falling from the

1342
01:00:36,670 --> 01:00:33,410
mountain and hitting the sign and I

1343
01:00:38,980 --> 01:00:36,680
recall saying okay I'm gonna do it I'm

1344
01:00:41,170 --> 01:00:38,990
gonna do it stop and I don't know who I

1345
01:00:43,539 --> 01:00:41,180
was talking to but I put my shoes back

1346
01:00:46,450 --> 01:00:43,549
on and I started walking in when I got

1347
01:00:50,799 --> 01:00:46,460
back on the road I felt this wind just

1348
01:00:56,609 --> 01:00:50,809
pushing me forward eventually the Sun

1349
01:01:00,460 --> 01:00:56,619
came up and I found myself in front of a

1350
01:01:02,589 --> 01:01:00,470
chapel and a small chapel on the

1351
01:01:06,220 --> 01:01:02,599
roadside and there was this woman there

1352
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:06,230
and a wall in the middle of this wall

1353
01:01:11,950 --> 01:01:09,410
there was a well from water and she

1354
01:01:15,009 --> 01:01:11,960
invited me over and she said you know

1355
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:15,019
come sit with me so I don't know why I

1356
01:01:20,370 --> 01:01:18,890
actually when they sat with her and she

1357
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:20,380
pointed up to the mountain and her

1358
01:01:28,059 --> 01:01:24,730
husband was up above with his sheep and

1359
01:01:33,490 --> 01:01:28,069
it was they're fasting so she offered me

1360
01:01:36,490 --> 01:01:33,500
a potatoes boiled potato olives and some

1361
01:01:37,839 --> 01:01:36,500
bread so we had something to eat and

1362
01:01:40,150 --> 01:01:37,849
then she went over to the wall I

1363
01:01:43,180 --> 01:01:40,160
remember and she put her hands in the

1364
01:01:45,870 --> 01:01:43,190
bucket when she got the water and she

1365
01:01:48,549 --> 01:01:45,880
drank some from her palm of her hand and

1366
01:01:52,319 --> 01:01:48,559
she told me look it's clean you can have

1367
01:01:55,359 --> 01:01:52,329
some water so I had some water and then

1368
01:01:58,210 --> 01:01:55,369
she told she gave me her cane which was

1369
01:02:01,599 --> 01:01:58,220
from a branch and she said you have to

1370
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:01,609
stop cutting through people's fields you

1371
01:02:05,799 --> 01:02:04,130
have to follow the road and I remember

1372
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:05,809
thinking how in the world does she know

1373
01:02:11,519 --> 01:02:07,730
that I was cutting through people's

1374
01:02:13,809 --> 01:02:11,529
property and not walking on the road so

1375
01:02:16,210 --> 01:02:13,819
she told me you're going to use my cane

1376
01:02:18,039 --> 01:02:16,220
and you're gonna push the road behind

1377
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:18,049
you just keep on pushing and you're

1378
01:02:21,630 --> 01:02:19,450
gonna reach to

1379
01:02:24,030 --> 01:02:21,640
another village you can ask for

1380
01:02:25,859 --> 01:02:24,040
so-and-so and tell her about your

1381
01:02:30,510 --> 01:02:25,869
journey and still give you some water

1382
01:02:33,870 --> 01:02:30,520
and something to eat so I left I

1383
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:33,880
followed her directions I continued to

1384
01:02:41,370 --> 01:02:38,170
walk and then another time came after

1385
01:02:43,620 --> 01:02:41,380
hours of walking where again I got

1386
01:02:48,569 --> 01:02:43,630
exhausted and again I was questioning

1387
01:02:50,970 --> 01:02:48,579
myself what I put myself into and there

1388
01:02:53,970 --> 01:02:50,980
was no people anywhere around me

1389
01:02:56,579 --> 01:02:53,980
so it's either walk back home or

1390
01:03:00,120 --> 01:02:56,589
continue walking and again a gust of

1391
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:00,130
wind lifted and feeling you know being

1392
01:03:07,770 --> 01:03:01,930
pushed I felt like somebody was pushing

1393
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:07,780
me forward and I remember a at a point

1394
01:03:14,039 --> 01:03:10,410
where I finally saw a car coming and

1395
01:03:16,289 --> 01:03:14,049
there was some sheep and the Sheep saw

1396
01:03:18,539 --> 01:03:16,299
the car so obviously they thought food

1397
01:03:20,670 --> 01:03:18,549
was coming so they were all surrounding

1398
01:03:26,339 --> 01:03:20,680
me while we were walking which was very

1399
01:03:30,839 --> 01:03:26,349
beautiful so after that I just continued

1400
01:03:35,670 --> 01:03:30,849
on walking I got lost and when I got

1401
01:03:37,530 --> 01:03:35,680
lost I had to walk in on a beach so I

1402
01:03:39,690 --> 01:03:37,540
was walking through sand for a while

1403
01:03:42,420 --> 01:03:39,700
which made you know my trip a little bit

1404
01:03:47,430 --> 01:03:42,430
more difficult because I was already

1405
01:03:50,819 --> 01:03:47,440
tired and finally towards the end of the

1406
01:03:52,319 --> 01:03:50,829
journey when there was three more loops

1407
01:03:53,970 --> 01:03:52,329
around because I'm walking down a

1408
01:03:57,150 --> 01:03:53,980
mountain now so you have to go around

1409
01:04:00,780 --> 01:03:57,160
and around and I had the church in sight

1410
01:04:02,370 --> 01:04:00,790
I just got this abundant amount of

1411
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:02,380
energy and I just started running

1412
01:04:09,030 --> 01:04:05,290
towards the church the Church of the Sun

1413
01:04:11,010 --> 01:04:09,040
this the Church of this yes yes yeah

1414
01:04:15,150 --> 01:04:11,020
Mikkel I found reached there and I just

1415
01:04:17,789 --> 01:04:15,160
ran and I remembered my friend who was

1416
01:04:19,559 --> 01:04:17,799
following me with her car she was

1417
01:04:22,079 --> 01:04:19,569
yelling at me to slow down I'm gonna

1418
01:04:22,530 --> 01:04:22,089
fall down because I must be exhausted

1419
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:22,540
already

1420
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:25,690
and I ran into the church there were

1421
01:04:30,150 --> 01:04:27,730
people there I waited for them to exit

1422
01:04:32,039 --> 01:04:30,160
and I went into the church grabbed a

1423
01:04:33,390 --> 01:04:32,049
handful of candles and they lit them for

1424
01:04:39,510 --> 01:04:33,400
my loved ones and family

1425
01:04:41,580 --> 01:04:39,520
and I just began to cry I went first

1426
01:04:45,210 --> 01:04:41,590
swim afterwards because there's a beach

1427
01:04:48,810 --> 01:04:45,220
right there in order to unwind from the

1428
01:04:51,450 --> 01:04:48,820
long journey and I told my friend she

1429
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:51,460
was bringing me water throughout this it

1430
01:04:53,970 --> 01:04:53,050
was approximately 10 hours that it took

1431
01:04:58,530 --> 01:04:53,980
me to get there

1432
01:05:00,450 --> 01:04:58,540
Wow she I told her about the woman the

1433
01:05:02,730 --> 01:05:00,460
woman that fed me the woman that you

1434
01:05:06,060 --> 01:05:02,740
know gave me her cane but I had with me

1435
01:05:09,150 --> 01:05:06,070
now and my friend told me that that

1436
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:09,160
morning before she woke up that she had

1437
01:05:15,150 --> 01:05:12,490
a dream and it just so happened in her

1438
01:05:16,890 --> 01:05:15,160
dream is the woman and man that she saw

1439
01:05:20,150 --> 01:05:16,900
on her dream that happened to be your

1440
01:05:25,470 --> 01:05:20,160
friends have the same name as the woman

1441
01:05:27,330 --> 01:05:25,480
saw and that today she has a big day

1442
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:27,340
ahead of her and she has to look out for

1443
01:05:33,300 --> 01:05:31,450
me so me and her decided that we're

1444
01:05:35,580 --> 01:05:33,310
gonna go back to where I was

1445
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:35,590
find the woman and thank her and

1446
01:05:41,750 --> 01:05:39,490
returned her cane we drove I think for

1447
01:05:45,900 --> 01:05:41,760
approximately maybe 45 minutes or so

1448
01:05:50,250 --> 01:05:45,910
trying to find the chapel trying to find

1449
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:50,260
this wall the woman anything we did not

1450
01:05:56,970 --> 01:05:52,810
find any evidence of it we didn't find a

1451
01:06:00,000 --> 01:05:56,980
chapel we did not find a wall we didn't

1452
01:06:05,070 --> 01:06:00,010
see any sheep anywhere it was it's as if

1453
01:06:09,150 --> 01:06:05,080
all of it was simply a dream no that's

1454
01:06:10,650 --> 01:06:09,160
my story the cane I gave it to a friend

1455
01:06:13,980 --> 01:06:10,660
of mine that was diagnosed with cancer

1456
01:06:15,930 --> 01:06:13,990
later on and told her to just remember

1457
01:06:16,550 --> 01:06:15,940
my journey and then everything will be

1458
01:06:21,510 --> 01:06:16,560
okay

1459
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:21,520
but unfortunately the cane after my

1460
01:06:28,980 --> 01:06:26,530
friend's house recovered the cane was

1461
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:28,990
lost we never found it again we don't

1462
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:31,290
nobody knows what ever happened to it

1463
01:06:39,630 --> 01:06:35,650
but your mind did recover yes my friend

1464
01:06:41,820 --> 01:06:39,640
did recover oh thank god oh wow but we

1465
01:06:45,450 --> 01:06:41,830
stored the came together in her parents

1466
01:06:46,980 --> 01:06:45,460
house I mean she and I put it away we

1467
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:46,990
wrapped it up in the plastic

1468
01:06:52,710 --> 01:06:49,810
bag and we safely stored it away and

1469
01:06:56,550 --> 01:06:52,720
that I had said when I return I'll take

1470
01:07:00,600 --> 01:06:56,560
it back to me to America and when I had

1471
01:07:05,940 --> 01:07:00,610
gone back me her parents and my friends

1472
01:07:08,490 --> 01:07:05,950
all searched for it and for over two

1473
01:07:11,220 --> 01:07:08,500
hours perhaps in their basement and we

1474
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:11,230
could not find it so we don't know what

1475
01:07:15,750 --> 01:07:13,450
happened to they came well that is an

1476
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:15,760
amazing story that's very interesting

1477
01:07:21,330 --> 01:07:18,010
it's really a beautiful story and it

1478
01:07:26,490 --> 01:07:21,340
reminds me just a little bit of the the

1479
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:26,500
road that people take in Spain there was

1480
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:29,170
a movie about it about a certain of the

1481
01:07:35,810 --> 01:07:33,010
road of a certain saint that people take

1482
01:07:38,370 --> 01:07:35,820
from one end of Spain to the other and

1483
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:38,380
the movie is quite interesting I think

1484
01:07:44,540 --> 01:07:42,250
you might benefit from from viewing that

1485
01:07:48,359 --> 01:07:44,550
movie because there's quite a bit like

1486
01:07:51,090 --> 01:07:48,369
like that at in your story but there's

1487
01:07:53,970 --> 01:07:51,100
been a thank you so much for sharing

1488
01:07:56,099 --> 01:07:53,980
your story with the other listeners too

1489
01:07:58,680 --> 01:07:56,109
shattered reality and hopefully it will

1490
01:08:05,460 --> 01:07:58,690
encourage them to share their story as

1491
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:05,470
well thanks mm bye now coming up next

1492
01:08:13,590 --> 01:08:09,010
yes on shattered reality we have Tom

1493
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:13,600
Butler who is an expert in EVP

1494
01:08:20,820 --> 01:08:17,170
electronic voice production and this has

1495
01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:20,830
to do with again the departed and don't

1496
01:08:24,599 --> 01:08:22,330
worry we'll get off the subject of the

1497
01:08:28,860 --> 01:08:24,609
departed sooner than later but just

1498
01:08:32,610 --> 01:08:28,870
following in that vein we have coming up

1499
01:08:35,190 --> 01:08:32,620
next a very very interesting man who has

1500
01:08:38,550 --> 01:08:35,200
devoted a good portion of his life to

1501
01:08:42,809 --> 01:08:38,560
researching electronic voice production

1502
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:42,819
where an electronic instrument such as a

1503
01:08:50,390 --> 01:08:46,330
radio or a computer or a telephone or a

1504
01:08:55,289 --> 01:08:50,400
tape recorder picks up the voice of a

1505
01:08:57,230 --> 01:08:55,299
another entity purportedly the voices of

1506
01:09:00,479 --> 01:08:57,240
the dead as well so we're going to let

1507
01:09:05,459 --> 01:09:00,489
Tom Butler explain that all to you

1508
01:09:07,459 --> 01:09:05,469
our next show until then this is Kate